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--- ketubot_11b [2023/09/30 09:14] – created - external edit 127.0.0.1
+++ ketubot_11b [2024/11/17 17:15] (current) – appledog
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 == Short Answer
-In Halakha there is law that not all sex is considered sex because some forms of sex do not produce children. For example, homosexual 'sex' is not considered reproductive sex, but it is still an abomination. Sex with a girl under 3 years of age is not sex in that sense, it is just abuse, and would not be punishable for the sexual offence per se (if it was incestuous or otherwise punishable), but only for the damage caused. Likewise for a woman having sex with a boy, it is not sex of reproduction unless he is 9 years old. Again that is not to say that it is permitted, but it is not reproductive sex. When the talmud says 'it is nothing' or 'no guilt', this is what it refers to, however the other punishments are still applicable. It is not an endorsement of the activity. All of this relates to weather it is sex or not, not if it is abuse.
-Why does this matter? Regardless of the age the rapist is obligated to pay damages (mental and physical) to the victim (because it is a crime and it is not permitted) -- but depending on the age of the victim the offender could either be forced into a lifetime marriage without possibility of divorce, with the attached legal responsibility of care, or he could be put to death in other situations.
+The section begins in Ketubot 11a which states "These are the cases of young women for whom there is a fine paid to their fathers by one who rapes them". It is a discussion over the law in Deuteronomy 22:28-29.
-== Medium Answer
+Therefore, any notion that the Talmud endorses this is wrong. It is only a discussion of whether or not the rapist will be punished with additional fines or punishments such as financially supporting his victim for life.
-== From the Scripture
-The Talmud is a law book.   Law books explain the law and often present cases that epitomize the law, and the Talmud does this, too.
-Consider this:  the United States has laws about murder and rape.   Does this mean that the United States condones, or even endorses, murder and rape?
+=== Explanation
+In Halakha (God's Law) there is a concept that sex can be spiritually clean or spiritually unclean. This should come as no surprise; almost anything can have the status of clean or unclean depnding on various factors. Generally speaking, spiritually clean sex refers to sex which:
-Ridiculous -- but this is exactly what the antisemites do when they say the Talmud condones sex with children!
+* a) occurs within the bounds of marriage
+* b) produces children
+For example, homosexual 'sex' is still sex, but it is considered **unclean** spiritually because it does not produce children. This means that homosexual marriage does not alter the status of homosexual sex as unclean.
+So, in the case of Ketubot 11b, this sex is still sex, **and therefore a crime has occurred,** yet sex with a girl under 3 years of age cannot produce children. Likewise for a woman having sex with an underage boy, it is not **sex //of reproduction//** unless he is 9 years old. Again that is //not// to say that it is permitted! It simply categorizes the sex act itself as reproductive sex or non-reproductive sex. When the talmud says 'it is nothing' or 'no guilt' this is what it refers to. The other punishments are still applicable. It is not an endorsement of the activity. All of this relates to weather it is **reproductive** sex or not, not if it is abuse.
+=== Why nitpick like this?
+Because if the woman has had reproductive sex, she is spiritually unclean and may not marry again in the future without penalty, and in such a case the rapist must pay extra restitution on top of paying for his crime.
+* Point 1: Regardless of the age the rapist is obligated to pay damages (mental and physical) to the victim (because it is a crime and it is not permitted).
+* Point 2: Depending on the age of the victim the offender could either be forced into a lifetime marriage without possibility of divorce, with the attached legal responsibility of care, or he could be put to death in other situations.
+== Proof from Torah
 The Torah tells us:  "If a man encounters a virgin girl who is not betrothed and is caught raping her,  then the rapist must give the girl's father 50 [shekels] of silver (the normal dowry price). He must then take the girl he violated as his wife (only if the girl consents (Yad, Naarah Bethulah 1:3), and he may not send her away as long as he lives."  D'varim / Deuteronomy 22:28 - 29.
-A rabbi on the website Aish wrote:  "The demand is to the rapist to protect the daughter, her reputation and her dowry. The rapist is held accountable and is made to be responsible for his actions. Rape of a single woman carries a heavy monetary fine (depending on the age of the victim), plus the rapist has to pay reparation for damages, as well as for her suffering, embarrassment and emotional anguish. The rapist also incurs lashes. This is all intended as both a deterrent and a punishment (D'varim / Deuteronomy 22:28-29, see also Rambam Rotzai'ach 2:4-5).
+Commentary from Aish: The demand is made to the rapist in order to to protect the daughter, her reputation and her dowry. The rapist is held accountable and is made to be responsible for his actions. Rape of a single woman carries a heavy monetary fine (depending on the age of the victim), plus the rapist has to pay reparation for damages, as well as for her suffering, embarrassment and emotional anguish. The rapist also incurs lashes. This is all intended as both a deterrent and a punishment (D'varim / Deuteronomy 22:28-29, see also Rambam Rotzai'ach 2:4-5).
-"As regards to what you read, it is true that the Torah states that the rapist must marry (and may never divorce) his victim (actually only if she is at a certain young age at the time), but both she and her father can refuse the "match" – which they are extremely likely to do. I believe the message of the Torah is not that the rapist can have whom he wants, but quite the opposite. If he wants to enjoy another human being, he cannot just do so and split. He becomes responsible for her – for the rest of his life."
+"...it is true that the Torah states that the rapist must marry (and may never divorce) his victim (actually only if she is at a certain young age at the time), but both she and her father can refuse the "match" – which they are extremely likely to do. I believe the message of the Torah is not that the rapist can have whom he wants, but quite the opposite. If he wants to enjoy another human being, he cannot just do so and split. He becomes responsible for her – for the rest of his life."
-The Talmud discusses what to do if a male child molests a female adult or if a male adult molests a young female child (Ketuvot 11b).   Remember that virginity was highly prized in ancient times -- is the raped 3 year old girl now considered a non-virgin for the purposes of a dowry later in her life? The Jewish judges wisely said that she is still considered a virgin for her sake and future.  Jewish law does not condone sex with a 3 year old or children, the opposite is true.
+The Talmud then discusses what to do if a male child molests a female adult or if a male adult molests a young female child (Ketuvot 11b). Remember that virginity was highly prized in ancient times -- is the raped 3 year old girl now considered a non-virgin for the purposes of a dowry later in her life? The Jewish judges wisely said that she is still considered a virgin for her sake and future.  Jewish law does not condone sex with a 3 year old or children, the opposite is true.
+== Proof from Talmud
 The Talmud states (Kiddushin 41a):
 האיש מקדש את בתו כשהיא נערה: כשהיא נערה אין כשהיא קטנה לא מסייע ליה לרב דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב ואיתימא רבי אלעזר אסור לאדם שיקדש את בתו כשהיא קטנה עד שתגדל ותאמר בפלוני אני רוצה
-Translation:  “A man may marry off his daughter when she is a na’ara / נערה / young woman" When she is a na’ara (young woman), yes. When she is a child, no. This supports the teaching of Rav, for Rav Y’huda said in the name of Rav, and there are those who say Rabbi El’azar, “It is forbidden for a man to marry off his daughter when she is a child, until she grows up and says, ‘I want to marry So-and-so.'”  (Talmud, Kiddushin 41a).
+Translation:  “A man may marry off his daughter when she is a na’ara / נערה / young woman" When she is a na’ara (young woman), yes. When she is a child, no. This supports the teaching of Rav, for Rav Y’huda said in the name of Rav, and there are those who say Rabbi El’azar, **“It is forbidden for a man to marry off his daughter when she is a child,** until she grows up and says, ‘I want to marry So-and-so.'”  (Talmud, Kiddushin 41a).
 Further, Niddah 13b says:   ת”ר הגרים והמשחקין בתינוקות מעכבין את המשיח… דנסיבי קטנות דלאו בנות אולודי נינהו
-Translation:   “The Rabbis taught in a b’raita: Converts and those who play with little girls delay the coming of the Messiah… The latter refers to those who marry [and have sexual relations with] girls who are too young to [safely]  bear children.”
+Translation:   “The Rabbis taught in a b’raita: Converts and those who play with little girls delay the coming of the Messiah… The latter refers to those who marry [and have sexual relations with] girls **who are too young to [safely] bear children.”**
-Molesting a child, whether above or below the age of three, is forbidden as stated clearly in both Kiddushin 41a and Niddah 13b.
+Therefore, molesting a child, whether above or below the age of three, is forbidden as stated clearly in both Kiddushin 41a and Niddah 13b.
+== Other
 Further, the Rambam (Maimonides, 12th century) in Issurei Biah 21:18 writes:  “A man should not marry a minor who is not fit to give birth.”
-Jewish law strictly forbids not only child molestation but all kinds of non-marital sexual relations are prohibited. The Rambam wrote in Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Ishut 1:4 "a person who has relations with a woman for the sake of lust, without kiddushin (marriage), receives lashes as prescribed by the Torah."
+Jewish law strictly forbids not only child molestation but all kinds of non-marital sexual relations are prohibited. The Rambam wrote in Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Ishut 1:4 "a person who has relations with a woman for the sake of lust, **without kiddushin (marriage),** receives lashes as prescribed by the Torah."
 The Talmud strongly opposed formation of the marriage bond by sexual force (at any age) and punished those who acted in such manner (Kiddushin 12b).
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 Sanhedrin 55b says IF a girl is raped if she is younger than 3 she is still considered a virgin for the sake of later marriage. If she is older then 3 it is considered RAPE and one of the compensations is that her father may demand the perpetrator marry her as well as pay all the criminal penalties.
-Remember that the man is not allowed to have sex with a 3 year old we are discussing what happens if someone DOES. The Talmud goes on to say that the father's right to marry off his daughter was to be used for her benefit. The age and manner of marriage is to a large extent a societal variable but at Kiddushin 41a the rabbis taught: "It is forbidden for a man to betroth his daughter while she is young [but rather he should wait] till she has grown and says 'This is the one I want [to marry]" and this teaching is repeated elsewhere in the Talmud.
+The man is not allowed to have sex with a 3 year old! It is only discussing the correct punishment if someone DOES. The Talmud goes on to say that the father's right to marry off his daughter was to be used for her benefit. The age and manner of marriage is to a large extent a societal variable but at Kiddushin 41a the rabbis taught: "It is forbidden for a man to betroth his daughter while she is young [but rather he should wait] till she has grown and says 'This is the one I want [to marry]" and this teaching is repeated elsewhere in the Talmud.
 The Laws of Niddah pertain to family purity (think menstruation or giving birth and once again becoming ritually clean by immersing in a mikvah). This chapter is discussing how old a person (male or female) can be ritually impure.
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 There is no real Talmud online unless you are reading it in Aramaic. The highly abridged ones online are very poor translations -- and again, highly abridged. |
-Arranged marriages with children was very common – particularly among Christians.   In July 1543, Mary of Scotland was betrothed to be married to Edward, son of King Henry VIII of England. She was 6 months old.
+Arranged marriages with children was very common – particularly among Christians. In July 1543, Mary of Scotland was betrothed to be married to Edward, son of King Henry VIII of England. She was 6 months old.
 SIX MONTHS OLD.